4thought.tv

Of course! In our family Christmas has never been a religious thing.before us, It has always been about spending the day as a family and having a fun time.

This isn't a comment on aetheism and Christmas, it is a comment on vegetarianism and Christmas. I am veggie (not vegan, admittedly) but conflating being veggie with being aetheist is insane. All Jain's are vegan, but also devoutly religious, similarly a great many aetheists eat meat.

I respect the speaker's position immensely, but it has nothing to do with the question "Can aetheists enjoy Christmas".

To answer that question, the answer is of course aetheists can enjoy Christmas. Virtually no theologians would say that we know that christ was born on Dec 25, and most would admit that the celebration is likely appropriated from pre-Christian midwinter festivals. With that in mind, there is a clear human want to have a party to celebrate the lengthening of the days that happens after Dec 21.

Christmas is no more about an Abrahamic dieity than is Easter, which at least retains its name for the pagan god ?ostre. For this reason, I don't celebrate Christmas, I celebrate Yule. I am an aetheist, and I am a historicaly accurate one.

Kat
One of my neighbours keeps chickens. They look fairly happy. They aren't particularly bright. Odd things upset them, and they do tend to act as a group. Even so they do seem to understand vaguely what's going on about them.
Ultimately they'll be killed for food & I hope they are killed humanely.
In the wild animals suffer some truly appalling deaths, but we should provide better for domestic animals.

I agree with the comment by Kit, this film is about cruelty caused to animals through eating them. I often considered changing my eating habits in consideration of arguments for vegetarianism or veganism. In doing so I often ask myself the following questions and I would appreciate if anyone knows of the answers to any of these questions:
How much awareness does a turkey have? We probably cannot know for sure but we must be able to work this out. Are some animals less aware/conscious than others? If this is true would it therefore mean that its less cruel to eat them than other animals? e.g. fish and insects compared to animals with large brains.
Is it more humane to commercially rear animals for food if the standards are of the highest, i.e. in environment geared to maximise psychological wellbeing compared to letting them take their chances in the wild? How many of the domesticated artificial selected animals would survive without humans?
I don't think these questions have anything to do with atheism but I think it is relevant to the film and the answers may persuade me in deciding if I agree or disagree with the speaker.

Sorry, this is laughable.

The question is, can Christians enjoy Christmas? You think Christmas is a Christian holiday? It's got roots in pre-christian history, it marks the time of year when the Sun makes a southward retreat, it has nothing to do with Jesus' birth.
The traditions of putting up trees and decorations etc came from 'Yule' and again is completely unrelated to the supposed birth of Jesus Christ.
Not only this, but many other Gods such as Horus, Issis and Mithra were all born on December 25th, making 'Christmas' even less of a Christian holiday.
Atheists are not bound by religious teachings, If I want to go out and celebrate a muslim tradition, I can, and the same goes for any other tradtion that might pop up. We don't see them as anything other than what they are, so I can't see any reason why we can't do what ever we want.

Commenting about this girl's vegan views, she is entitled to them, but at the same time, this is a society where everyone's views/ desires/ standards/ wealth etc have to come into the equation. People want their meat, but they wouldn't pay the higher prices for non mass slaughtered animals, and to keep up with current demand, to have all animals slaughtered in such a way would make each cut much more expensive than even the current expensive prices.

So in short, people care more about lower prices than worrying about how their meal is killed (which I believe is quite satisfactory regardless).

If we were all vegetarians the only animals would be wild or pets. What would happen to the countryside if there were no sheep or cows?

Wild animals and indeed we ourselves have more cruel deaths than domesticated ones. Some wild animals - moose killed by wolves, buffalo killed by monitor lizards, seals killed by whales for example have horrendous deaths.

Is a short life for the purpose of food worse than no life at all?

This has nothing to do with atheists enjoying Christmas!

RickRoyce seems to believe that cows and sheep are not originally wild animals... Cows and Sheep can survive without human intervention. Breeds such as the highland cow survive torrential weather conditions and rough terrain.. Human intervention has resulted into nothing but pain and suffering for these animals as well as some unwanted side effects.
Kat is simply stating aside from religion she believes that Christmas should be about compassion and that she finds nothing compassionate about the slaughter of thousands of chickens.

Is a short life for the purpose of food worse than no life at all?

If this was how a child was treated would you be so quick to ask the same question?? Life is precious, and in the case of breeding for slaughter nothing deserves the cruelty and misery seen on factory farms.

about time, we should all take responsibility of how we treat any living breathing creature , that does not want to die, christmas is about compassion love and understanding, I have rescued turkeys from a death which all of them would fear over , they are all in a sorry state from their short life in a factory farm, chickens are as bright as any other creature, we just need to of given them a chance and connect, instead of sticking them in small cages and depriving them from what should be a right to feel the sun and stretch and climb, christmas for me is a time of misery caused by humans wanting every thing with no thought to any other sufferings, bless all the animals out there right now that are living in fear and killed from greed, entertainment down to the unwanted companion animals which too are thrown out to make room for another , great channel 4 for doing what any media should be doing , opening our minds

me an my gf and all of my family hurt for the ppor animals that are sloughterd.

there is no need for it. like the girl on the advert, we are vegertarian.
why cant there just be compassion an peice. all humans do is think of there selves and our totally de attached from whats goin on. it really winds me up. im also so glad cage hen ban is in :). i just cant wait until mean is banned full stop.

Why on earth would Channel 4 show this film before Christmas!? The only time of the year where people can relax with a few days off work with their families and enjoy a nice meal together and Channel 4 want to make the nation feel guilty for that!?

I will quite happily pause for thought for children that do not have families at Christmas but certainly wont feel guilty for having a Christmas dinner!

I am also an atheist!

Agree 100% with this film. Christmas is held to celebrate kindness to those less fortunate than us. Animal cruelty - and all farming is ultimately cruel - should really have no place in it.

i love the meat, its what their bread for :)

I totally agree with Kat.. people need to know the truth about how the turkey ends up on the table. If they knew, most wouldn't have turkey or at the least would buy organic, ethically sourced turkey where hopefully the birds would have had a slightly better life. What gives us the right to eat animals anyway?

Well done channel 4. If the macho men who disagree with Kat actually took a live turkey home to the wife and kids and then slaughtered & plucked & emptied it, I wonder if they'd still all be so happy to eat it. Some would, many wouldn't.

This has nothing to do with atheism and everything with veganism.
Personally I am an atheist but I am certainly not a vegan or vegetarian. I am very much looking forward to spending the holidays with my family and roasting a goose! To be honest if I couldn't buy them in a shop I'd keep some in the garden and butcher them myself. As it is I'm getting mine from an organic butcher.

you dont tell a lion that it should eat a shrub because otherwise it might stress out the antelopes, it is animal nature, in a similar fashion evolution has taught us animal husbandry, this in turn makes farming our nature and i would say our methods are much more humane than that of a natural predator, furthermore if it werent for farming these turkeys and chickens etc would never even have been born in the first place. on a final note; chill your bean, its christmas.

This was supposed to be about atheists at Christmas.If I had known I was going to be preached at about eating meat I would not have watched.The person on this video hijacked the programme and gave an animal rights activists view.Channel 4 need to make sure the view given on these videos is as advertised.

Thank you Kat for covering this topic. Kindness should extend to animals.
We can enjoy Xmas without causing animals to suffer and die.

Also yes atheists can enjoy Christmas, i mean im not a religious person, i dont even thing about religion round christmas, i just enjoy being round my family and enjoying the festive season and day.

even though you didnt say anything about being an atheist besides your an atheist thats what i wanted to say and the animal stuff in the last somment i posted

I totally agree.I'm vegan n agnostic and I think that people are vein n don't give a shit about other creatures n therefore let them suffer for their pleasure.

Factually incorrect! Turkeys, due to their size are generally gassed not stunned prior to a very quick and painless death. As you next tuck into your plate of vegetables think of all the rabbits that are culled to protect them and other wildlife that is accidentally killed during harvest, not to mention the loss of habitat to agricultural land.

I 100% agree !! i am 37 work at a builder,s merchants and have done for 16 yrs i have been vegetarian for 23 years and when i get the bacon sandwich jokes i let them know big time ! i agree i dont agree that any celabration should be around a dead animal being cooked for our entertainment and yet we think starving africans is apualing !!!!!!!!! i am owned by 3 rescue lurchers and 2 rescue terriers , i,ve spent £130 on a vet bill for my pet turkey before today we have 40 hens from the local chicken product factory ( believe me you wouldn,t eat poultry products if you knew that rats where pissing all over prepared products ! i should know my other half was bought in to block up rat holes it took him 5 months none stop ! lastly we have 4 rescue goats ps i have a mortgage and bought my house cheap and earn £302for 52 hours a week !some of which where kept by a silly old bastard who believed he would make money frome keeping 127 in 4 huts and breeding for meat oops he forgot to feed them ! this rescue was on rspca 247 it was so disgusting ! need more ? look up halaal should be ileagle in this country sickening ! i don,t like to dwell on that makes me want abandon this country for letting it happenso i for one will be enjoying christmas with tofurkey !!! i made it last year and it was georgouse and guilt free ! RECIPE IS ON LINE !!!!!!!!!!!! IM GLAD SOME OF THE YOUNGER GENERATION ARE SPEAKING OUT PS I WAS VEGAN AFTER LEARNING FROM A WELL KNOWN FARMER INFORMED US IT IS COW PUSSS AS IN SPOT PUSS !!!!!!!!!!I STILL USE SOYA MILK NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a veterinary student I have recently taken part in the slaughter of turkeys for the Christmas table.
The turkeys are raised to free range and organic standards, and are stunned before slaughter.
Humans are omnivores - proof is in our teeth structure - and we have hunted (which is our natural behaviour) and domesticated animals for thousands of years. Removing the choice of meat from our diets is in itself unnatural.
I agree that animals should be farmed to the highest standards, should be kept in as natural environment as possible and provided with enrichment etc., but to suggest that meat will ever be banned is, in my opinion, absolutely ridiculous. For one, it is far too tasty.
This film has nothing to do with atheism - Christmas is an occasion now enjoyed by everyone, from all faiths!

I agree with this film. Christmas should be about compassion. There is nothing compassionate or (as people in comments argue) natural about factory farming. We owe it to other animals, to our environment and ourselves to seriously re-consider our relationship to farming and to eating animals. And, for vegans/vegetarians (atheists or not) feasting and the 'Christmas turkey' tradition only highlight the cruelty of factory farming further.

I totally respect Kat for speaking out about her views, and only wish more people thought about the suffering on their plates.

Sorry, I don't care. I'm a Meat Eater and always will be. Humans have been eating Meat from day one and perhaps if the girl in this film received Meat Protein she wouldn't look so pale and sickly!

Well done lady - you go girl! You made the point very well.

Don't be fooled by the rediculous TV ad - eg. "Happy Eggs" rubbish and all of these ads with glistening lumps of turkey flesh being sliced into like a disgusting post mortem. The worse bit for me is when my dad puts his hand up a turkey to stuff it!! WTF?! In what weird world is it OK TO SHOVE YOUR HAND UP A DEAD BODY'S RECTUM?!?!

Each year tens of millions of turkeys are slaughtered in the UK – over 10 MILLION KILLED FOR THE XMAS MARKET alone. The vast majority of them spend their short lives in vast industrial sheds and never go outside. Don’t buy turkey meat.

Turkeys have a zest for living and, treated with respect, they become very friendly. Turkeys have large, dark, almond-shaped eyes and sensitive fine-boned faces. Wild turkeys roost in trees and roam in woodlands, eating vegetation and insects. An adult bird can fly up to 50mph!

Intensively farmed turkeys are fattened up so quickly that often their legs cannot support them. They collapse and try to drag themselves along by their wings. Tens of thousands die because they cannot get to food and water points. They become so fat that their hearts can actually explode.

Many turkeys have the ends of their beaks cut off to stop plucking and cannibalism – behaviour caused by stress. This can be distressing and leave them in permanent pain.

At the slaughterhouse, most are hung upside down and dragged through an electrified water-bath to stun them. It doesn’t always work and many birds are still fully conscious when their throats are cut.

Totally agree. It's a shame that this supposed celebration of Peace on Earth means an all-out massacre for the animal kingdom - I simply don't believe that animals are here for us to treat them and the rest of the planet like a giant MacDonald's. (There are some honourable exceptions within all faiths of course!) Surely the scriptures mention 'stewards' rather than cruel dictators? I am a vegan atheist with Buddhist leanings who celebrates the holiday with a corpse-free table - and many of my meaty friends and family join me because they love what I cook. If you are religious, check out the writings of veggie and Christian theologian Dr Andrew Linzey, who is a star and a great example even if I don't believe in his God (or any god for that matter). There are similar luminaries in the other major religions, just wish they were more in the public eye.

I loved the conviction and compassionate approach to living. She said "Christmas should be a time for compassion" Whatever we do if gratitude can be present in that then it's not a wasted life i.e. the dead turkey....personally the throw away society and constant consumption of meat doesn't favour our bodies. A compassionate approach to eating regardless of the time of year is an energy bonus, but spreading that into the way we think and act could be more powerful. Just to clarify I have no Halo ...and not particulary fussed on growing one, her views seemed sincere hence the feedback.

Vegetarianism is bad for the environment. Massive amounts of land is destroyed to make way for crops. Harvesting these crops kills millions of small animals (rabbits, mice, lizards, bugs, etc.) and damages the ecosystem. Plus vegetarians run the risk of nutritional deficiencies of iron, calcium, B12, magnesium, and vitamin D to name a few. So vegetarianism does two things; weakens the body and damages the environment. The current methods of obtaining animal proteins are not perfect, but the vegetarian lifestyle is no better.

The speakers point of view has absolutely NOTHING to do with the question posed. She really shouldn't kid herself, a lot of people know exactly what happens to animals before they are slaughtered and still eat meat anyway. I'm appalled this segment was even broadcast under this theme at all.

Man was a vegerterian before the flood, man eat herbs, But after the flood man was at liberty to eat meat. Not only so animals were used in Hebrew sarifices which were ordained by God, those Animals were killed humanley, the priests had a way of doing this. The Bible would teach that in a coming day. man will go back to eating herbs, thats after Christ returns and puts all the wrongs right, this peroid is called the millenium 1000 years of unparrelled peace and prosperity on the earth, "The whole creation traveleth and groaneth in pain unto now waiting for the adoption of the sons of God" (Romans 8) If we are to enjoy an unparrelled life then it is esential to put our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ now as Saviour and Lord. Meat eating came about because of mans sin. You would have seen David Attenborough's film showing animals devouring one another, then that will cease "The Lion and the Lamb will lay down together.. a child will put his hand on a snake and be unharmed"(Isaiah 11) Non animal food will be transformed at high rate,there will be no shortages or famine, no Turkey dinners!

I also didn't see the connection between Christmas and veganism. It's akin to saying you hate war on Christmas because people get killed.