4thought.tv

This makes me feel angry and angry.

Wow.

This makes me feel angry, sad, angry and sad.

I am so bored listening to such rubbish! Move on, get real, stop pushing your own negative thoughts!

I learned something from it.

Permanent, faithful, stable relationships bring out both the masculine and feminine sides of the nature of both parties whatever their gender. There is therefore no theological objection to this understanding of the love of each other as an image of Christ.

This makes me feel angry, sad, angry and sad. I don't understand the speaker's point of view at all.

As someone who knows and is close friends with gay people, i am very upset by Lorna's opinions. We are all made in God's image. If he had meant for people to not have homosexual relationships then people would not experience these feelings for people of their own sex. The bible can be interpreted in many ways and i think that everyone's views of the bible should be included, as any person, whether they be homosexual or heterosexual, should be allowed to worship God and teach others about God.

This makes me feel confused and confused. It helped me understand the speaker's point of view.

I am not a Christian but I have read the Bible. What the heck is the Anglican church thinking of?!! No way should there be gay bishops. Might as well chuck the Bible in the bin if that's what they are planning to do. Make up their own rules. Seems like they're doing that already!!

This makes me feel confused and confused.

Why is this woman's head not covered? How dare she condemn homosexuality as 'against scripture' whilst breaking such a simple rule? I dare say she has no problem eating pork and shellfish, either. Christianity is a work in progress- simple rules like this simply do not matter. Loving God and loving your neighbour: this is what is important.

An articulate and thougthtful viewpoint

I have no problem with clergy being gay. My problem is with them being religious. How can they be so superstitious ?

I don't understand the speaker's point of view at all.

They should be grateful that people still show interest in religion, its the biggest cause of war and destruction throughout the world. What type of mother would this woman be if one of her children turned out gay?! Would she tell them to stop believing in something that she has drummed into them!!

This makes me feel i would like to agree with what lorna has said. if people want to be gay bishops then they should be the ones to live the church of england. we need christians who will stand up for the truth of jesus and what christianity is all about and not coward chri and i would like to agree with what lorna has said. if people want to be gay bishops then they should be the ones to live the church of england. we need christians who will stand up for the truth of jesus and what christianity is all about and not coward chri.

It's wrong for any religion (all 'man-made' by the way to destroy critical thinking and enforce government control) to dictate how anyone should live their life.. Sexuality is NOT a choice - it's a biological state.. I applaud anyone being open about their sexuality..and being empathetic and supportive to ALL human beings..regardless of race, creed, religion, status or sexuality. Get your priorities in order and focus on exposing far more important issues ie media manipulation ESPECIALLY of religious hatred and intolerance causing all the wars we're currently suffering.. http://www.truth-out.org/how-rupert-murdoch-woos-christian-right/1310479644

I don't understand the speaker's point of view at all.

Sadly, taking a biblical position, leaves no room for the grace and love of God. People who are Gay have served the church well, for hundreds of years, whether openly gay or not. Those who adopt the stance that being Gay excludes you from society or being able to fulfil a leadership position in the church are sadly mistaken in their ideas and are painting themselves into a corner, with no way out. They deny the action of God in their lives, being prepared to listen, to learn and to change. I accept that they believe that they are right, but their definition of right is narrow and blinkered. If we relied on some of the scripture to treat others, we would still have slavery and women in servitude. The liberating message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ would have been missed. The Holy Spirit does not discriminate on the basis of race, gender, disability or anything else. It blows where it will, and is received by all that are willing to receive it. Who is man to discriminate against another man. Only God can.

This makes me feel angry, sad, angry and sad.

I suugest Lorna Ashworth should leave the Church of England and set up her own homophobic, right-wing church. A common Christian-like attitude- 'love thy neighbour' ... unless they're gay! God help any of her children should they turn out to be gay- Mind you, I hope they do and I pray they're not too indoctrinated and fearful to tell Mum exactly where to go....that burny burny place below where all the dead gay folk hang out

I don't feel a conflict within myself between being gay and a Christian. My faith comes from the belief that ALL are worthy of love, respect and tolerance. I express my faith in how I interact with the world around me, the people, the animals and the land. My sexuality is an expression of my individuality, which has little bearing upon my interactions in the world. If a Bishop is not openly Gay, that could be a source of conflict within the individual, which could undermine their ability to perform the duties of a Bishop. I'd much rather see an able, openly gay Bishop than a conflicted and closeted Bishop.

If you truly call your self a fallower of Christ you can not support any type of sexual immortality. Adultry, sex out of marriage and homosexuality. These are sin. And if we practice this, we miss use the grace afforded us by Christ and his death and resurrection. As leaders of the church, they should lead by example. as Paul did. Trying to justify lust and selfishness doesn't make sin righteous. It makes us foolish to think we can change God's blessed word for this world. I pray those who choose to live as sexual immoral people, they will repent and seek the God that they once made a outh to serve. God will forgive if there is repentance. Otherwise we face His judgement.

This makes me feel we need to carefully search the scriptures. many of us writing things here havent really done that with the best interest of the topic at hand. lets genuinely search the word of god and hear him speak. and we need to carefully search the scriptures. many of us writing things here havent really done that with the best interest of the topic at hand. lets genuinely search the word of god and hear him speak..

As to why people have such feelings towards same sex if God didnt put it there- I think people have such feelings because it is in our nature to disobey & not necessarily that God put those feelings there. Even if it is inate, it is your choice to decide what to do with it. Of course you can love and care about someone like a brother and dear friend. but not sexually. Remember somewhere in the bible, where the signs of the end were being listed, it says that men will be lovers of men and ... This isnt a compliment or is it?
Gay men or lesbians of course are always welcome in the church, afterall, God asks us to "come as ye are"...but they ought not lead the church. What will they teach concerning the sanctity and purity of marriage to those who still believe in it.
I think we genuinely know what's right and what is not. It's simply in our nature to disobey and rebel against God. What a shame. We just cant eat our cake and have it. That's the sad truth. We cant have our way in everything.
Bless you.

I agree with Lorna.God calls homosexuality a perversion.It was a pagan practice, as people rebelled against God and instead practiced idolatery.God says if we say we love Him, we must obey His commands.God created male and female(both humans and animals). Jesus calls people who pretend to be christians,"wolves in sheep's clothing".Those clergys should read Leviticus 18 verse 22,20 verse 13 and Romans 1 verse 26-27.

its just amusing for the world to watch as the church argues with itself and ties itself into knot. dont do yourself any favours ;)

I am utterly disgusted that such blatently homophobic comments can be broadcast on channel 4. I understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and maybe gay clergy are not living within the scriptures but broadcasts such as this belong in the dark ages.
Your sexuality should make no difference to your ability to serve God in exactly the same way as your race should make no difference.
If this is the beliefs and teachings of the Christian church then I for one am glad that I do not believe in Christianity or any other religion. I can hold my head up high safe in the knowledge that I do not discriminate unlike Lorna Ashworth who quite clearly does!

It reinforced what I already believed.

The speakers point of view is reasonable as it relates to practicing homosexuals only, and does not bar homosexuals from holy orders. While Jesus did not openly condemn homosexuality he did appear to advise discretion and to avoid getting into misogynistic lines of debate. He seems to have implied a celibate priesthood but conceded that the 'band of brothers', community construct could function in an ordered sense. The Catholic Church has orders as well as a Church priesthood where many men take on 'Brotherly', vocations. I'm sure a fair proportion of them are Gay. But the celebration of the Mass requires a degree of chastity or sexual maturity at least on the part of the priesthood. It's not even appropriate for Priests to be narcissists. We saw that in Ireland and it's a sure sign of sexual immaturity.

It reinforced what I already believed.

Unfortunately, this has reinforced my view that the Christian church attracts people who are self-righteous, mean-spirited and strangely obsessed with knowing what other people get up to in bed. Do you take the News of the World, Lorna?!

Thanks Lorna - you're quite right to focus on the division which this teaching causes in the church. You simply need to look north to us across the border to see what the recent debate in the Church of Scotland has caused. This is not a localised issue however - the direction of the "same sex ordination" movement is contrary not only to the received teaching of the worldwide Christian church but it is inconsistent with the plain teaching of the Bible. The doors of the church are wide open - but the path of Christian discipleship is clear.

NONE of the 4thought.tv programme's which i've seen are pro-skepticism, they're all pro-CHRISTIANITY. I thought it was meant to be a programme discussing a diverse variety of view points, apparently not.

I can't stress enough how much I disagree with the nonsense that Lorna was spouting. Never mind gay bishops " bishops and the church/religion itself are the problem. Homosexuality is just the latest "must-hate fad of the church. It was women (and still is to some extent) who bore the brunt of church contempt " they've just moved onto some other poor group of humans now!
I'm surprised channel 4 went as far as giving her superstitious clap-trap a voice. The church is just another cult " a power craving, anti-humanist, prejudiced and out-dated ideology. Why should I take Lorna's prejudice seriously? I don't believe in Smurfs " why should I believe in a petty god, angels and other fairy-tale creatures?. Yes " I am one of those pesky aggressive atheists " get over it!

This makes me feel sad and sad.

I was deeply saddened by seeing prejudice on evening television regardless of religion, ethnicity or upbringing. This reaffirms negative stereotypes of many religions those involved need to wake up to the modern world and realise that humanity has come a long way since scripture. I am not a member of the Anglican church nor am I a homosexual, but hatred for someone based on their sexuality deeply offends me and is quite frankly evil.

This makes me feel glad and glad.

I was glad people like this who have prevented reform (particularly in the last 50 years) may hopefully leave the church altogether. I just hope they can reform enough to eventually present the bible as a story to give people access to God, and stop presenting it as a book of fact.

It reinforced what I already believed.

I entirely agree with Lorna Ashworth,that practising homosexuals, whether so called Bishops or clergy or the laity should repent. This practice is spliting the Church of England. Those who are subject to the teaching of the scriptures should seperate from those who practise such things. The New testament states "Come out from among them, and be seperate, and touch not the unclean thing...what communion has light with darkness, what concord have Christ with Belial" (2 Corinthians 6)

It reinforced what I already believed.

Lorna Ashcroft is a bigot, despite her protestations to the contrary. Homosexuality is a perfectly natural sexual orientation and occurs regularly within the animal kingdom (and yes, humans are animals), therefore her point about "God's design" is a moot one. There are plenty of heterosexuals on this planet who will go forth and multiply, it really is NOT a problem. So why don't all you good Christians lay off homosexuals and chillax!

If this issue is splitting the church - then, frankly, that is no more than it deserves. There are many strange minority sects around the world that hold bizarre beliefs, completely out of tune with society. Perhaps the Anglican Church would do well to join them, while the rest of us get on with living and loving.

What Homosexual Anglican Bishops do is really none of my business. The only time I go to church is odd Funeral at which the sexuality of the clergy has not been an issue.

Lorna Ashworth is mistaken. There is no condemnation of same sex love in the Bible. As I have shown in my book The Gay Gospels Jesus showed great empathy for gay people (e.g. the Centurion's servant) and may well have been gay himself (cf his relationship with the Beloved Disciple reported in the Gospel of John). The teaching of the Church has been proved wrong many times (e.g. over attitudes to witchcraft, slavery, the Jews) because it excluded people whom God loves. The teaching of the Church about gay people is being proved wrong now for the same reason: God loves all his children, not just the heterosexual ones Lorna Ashworth approves of.

I felt upset watch Lorna Ashworth in my living room at 7pm. I am not used to having to watch offensive material at that time of day, such programmes are a choice to watch later in the the evening. The church is in a state of confusion as it will lose a lot of support from other countries if it fails to entertain such cruel sentiments as Lornas. But it should not be inflicted on the public except in the context of a weird point of view such as the National Front, later in the evening.

Thanks Lorna.
It is rare these days for TV to allow the traditional biblical position to be articulated. you did it well and graciously. thank you.

This makes me feel annoyed and annoyed.

The one antigay NT word is in 1Cor 6.9, also anti-demonising, re access to God's hegemony. "All is legal for me but not all is prudent" follows.

I don't understand the speaker's point of view at all.

It is a disgrace that such medieval views are allowed on television. No such platform is given to the likes of the BNP and the views of this individual are just as bigotted. It is extreme irony that these views are dressed up as some sort of christian view when they are at odds with so called christian values such as understanding compassion etc. An absolutely vile attitude. These sorts of perverse views if allowed to flourish would return us to burning witches and the stoning of women. The matter that reassures me is that overtime these views are becoming more marganilised and these sorts of people which just become part of some obscure weird cult that will disappear over time.

This makes me feel angry and angry.

What a load of hypocritical nonsense, it just demonstrates how out of touch the Anglican Church is. Born out of political necessity it will die because of bigotry and intolerance. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own bigoted desires and mind set. You can use the bible to justify any action or deed or to persecute people that are different. To put the blame on god is like the worker blaming his tools or the designer blaming his product.

This makes me feel angry and angry.

Lorna Ashworth trotted out the same old nonsensical arguments to try justify her position, but completely failed to do so.

I actually wonder if those in the church who condemn homosexuality have bothered reading the Bible at all. The Bible doesn't actually condemn homosexuality - unless you want it to. It's more likely that the neo-conservative wing of the Church would like the Bible to condemn homosexuality to suit their narrow world view. Do these same people think we should return to slave ownership to be entirely biblical? At first glance the Bible appears to justify that also, doesn't it?

The Church will not be destroyed by appointing openly Gay Bishops, it's more likely to be destroyed by irrelevance, for we no longer serve the communities in which we exist. We take up these silly, narrow-minded positions that completely isolate us from millions of people who are probably crying out for a religious dimension to their lives.

Lorna's comments were as embarrassing as they were shameful.

Revelations 3:16, "So then because thou art lukewarm ... I will spue thee out of my mouth" - Referring, perhaps, to the well-known fact that tepid water tends to produce sickness at the stomach, and an inclination to vomit. The image is intensely strong, and denotes deep disgust and loathing at the indifference which prevailed in the church at Laodicea. The idea is, that they would be utterly rejected and cast off as a church - a threatening of which there has been an abundant fulfillment in subsequent times. It may be remarked, also, that what was threatened to that church may be expected to occur to all churches, if they are in the same condition; and that all professing Christians, and Christian churches, that are lukewarm, have special reason to dread the indignation of the Saviour. God bless you Lorna for being true to God's Word and staying hot!

This makes me feel angry and angry.

My last word on this subject is this. Exodus 21.7 Exodus 35.2 Leviticus 11.7 - just a few pronouncements that are plainly absurd in the cultural context of our times. Of course if one can pick and choose at all what one believes, and it seems to me self-evident that we mus; then any condemnation of gay people (no its not good enough to say you only condemn gay behaviour), is a matter of conscious human choice - and therefore simply discriminatory.

This makes me feel glad, happy, glad and happy. It reinforced what I already believed.

This makes me feel annoyed, sad, annoyed and sad. I don't understand the speaker's point of view at all.

Bigot.

Whilst the church of England remains connected to the state it has a responsibility to reflect the rules that govern everyone else and that includes the acceptance of homosexuals as equal members of our community in every respect. How can we take moral pronouncements of the clergy seriously if their views are frozen by an old book that was written aeons ago for another time and another place?

Few people in Britain today and that includes most members of the church of England consider the bible to be true in it's entirety so they need to also adjust their views on this point. In reality it's one of prejudice, since the church has been quite capable of flexibility in relation to other biblical strictures - I don't see them recommending the stoning of adulterers, for instance.