4thought.tv

This is absurd and disconnected thinking and to start off with Remembrance as a form of glorifying the military is crass.
Islamists and Christian fundamentalists really don’t like each other. This hate should help individual Muslims and Christians like Leon to understand that it is not personal and there is nothing they can do about it. But he has to bring God into it. The truth is the world has shrunk and these 2 mutually exclusive faiths need to learn to live together. But they thrive on each other’s flaws and to concede the other might be right is to concede error. Islam is correct because the blood of Jesus Christ does not have magical properties (on the basis of an embryo transfer the blood is human). Christianity is correct that Jesus was more than a street magician and his acquiring the kingship of Israel validated his claim of Messiah which to undermine, undo or usurp is an act of reckless arrogance. Therefore, both Islam and Christianity are wrong.
Leon is twisting Remembrance to justify Islam as a religion of peace and so we need to show it is a fallacy because I like Remembrance and I think it is more important than religious pretences.

I think that remembrance of some military for a particular act is a worthy remembrance but it should not be something that is used as a blanket across the board. islam directs us to individual investigations into most issues and remembrance would be one of the circumstances where I consider it necessary. We have military that commit the most shameful acts and we have good decent folks as well.

I also concur that fighting is not what God wants for us all though it is necessary at times. We should spend more effort and peaceful solutions. I could never join a military for the same reasons Dr Moosavi suggested. One is not able to make very many moral decisions as an under soldier...

Remembrance V Creationism (Islam)

Richard Dawkins the Evolutionary Biologist has been at war with creationists ever since they banned the teaching of evolution in schools. Richard Dawkins has a weapon of mass destruction which can force all creationism to implode. In his book “The God Delusion” he exposes a Bible anomaly with the observation that Yahweh (a humanoid sky-god) is the God of the Old Testament. Only the author of “The Selfish Gene” could have made this identification because it was on the basis that Yahweh is selfish like a gene. Dawkins apologized for embarrassing the creationists but he shouldn’t have because Yahweh can give him his much sought after battle royale. Quite inadvertently, creationism was circumvented and isolated from the genuine Abrahamic prophets or the prophets of Yahweh.

We all know Jesus claimed to be Yahweh but this has never meant anything because the next question was always, who the hell is Yahweh. Well, the observation that Yahweh is the God of the Old Testament and is selfish is the first of many consistencies which increase the probability that Yahweh and Yeshua are one and the same.

Where does this leave creationists like Leon?

Anyone who reads the prophets and makes some other observation has to consider the probability that they may be illiterate. Everything about creationism is institutionalised because it has no other merit. It really has been exposed by Dawkins and Yahweh. Creationists cannot be taken seriously except for their threats.

Evolution has “survival of the fittest” and the religious equivalent is the policy of “might is right”. Hence, the emphasis on totalitarianism and war (institutionalised peace) as a defence mechanism and this is reflected in Eastern terrorism in the West and Western justice in the East. Every hero is at the same time an anti-hero. Even if Leon finds his honourable Imam he will always be an anti-hero in my world where God is a man and fights his own fight.

Yahweh and Dawkins have much in common. Consider their visits to Jerusalem. Both fighting suppression with the gutsy Dawkins pointing out creationist faith schools amounted to child abuse. The even gutsier Yahweh angrily marched to the then seat of creationist worship and reprimanded his servants for their institutionalised illiteracy, institutionalised lies and institutionalised hypocrisy. Not surprisingly, on day 2 Yahweh was thrown out of the temple and war was declared. On Wednesday he sneaked back in to irritate them further by continuing the theme with explicit declaration that he was Yahweh. He started with, “you both know me and from whence I am” but for progressive creationists it was regress and so creationism never was, never can be and never will be about the truth.

Wow - Soldiers fight and die for the flag so the protester and student can speak freely. I am a serving soldier and it makes me feel so proud that we can broadcast this "tripe" on tv. It certainly wouldn't be allowed in a muslim Country I am sure; any criticism of Islam or the state and there is uproar, riots etc. Well done Leon, you are wrong but I am proud to serve for a country which allows its citizens to speak freely and welcomes refugees from Muslim countries where they are persecuted for speaking their mind.

As a serving soldier I'm fuming that 'he' has just been given the time on air for his little rant. Still, just goes to show that it's the west which is tolerant. I wonder how far I'd get on Al Jazzera preaching my beliefs (non religious???)
I may not agree with the politicians either, but they are elected by the people, and yes, the soldier is the last form of diplomacy. Somebody has to do the job. We can't all just sponge off the state and stay at home.
As for Remembrance Day, I believe it's important that the next generations learn about what went before and the sacrifices that were made; not just by soldiers, but everyone, on all sides. It should have been (I'm referring to WWI and II) enough tell make us all change are ways. But the truth is it's in our makeup. Nature will decide who is to survive in the end, and it won't matter a penny which 'god' you believe in then.

As a former member of the british military I did not join to take money of the politicians, or for the glory or to go to war. I joined because I love this country, and my Queen.

As for the term hero, the soldiers sailors and airman who served and lost there lives protecting this country are heros and I will allways honour respect and remember them.

I also respect the mulim culture as I do Catholic, C of E and many other religions. However rememberence day is about remembering fallen colleuges, familly members and friends, of every country and every service NOT just the british army.

you couldn't be a soldier for the british army because you obviously do not love this nation and consider it your home. Any man would fight for their home if it was in danger. British soldiers don't fight because they are told to, they join the forces to defend their country. A sence of pride and worth you will never feel yourself. I feel for you as you have no place in this world. you're religion blinds you from reality. Human nature is animal nature. It is a dog eat dog world and i have no doubt as you are a doctor you fought for you're place, doing so taking the opportunities away from others. Politicians are just humans with the desire for power and control, more so then me or you maybe but we all want to be in control of our lives.
The wars of modern age have been a threat to our nation and way of living. Nazi germany threatened to invade our nation where as al-Qaeda threaten our nation with terror. Humans have been fighting over the best land to bring up their families throughout history. Religion is evil in the respect that the war was a pointless one as there were ultimately no winners or losers. A waste of life driven by human nature at its worst, in a belief that it's what "God" wants. Hiding behind religion to make them believe their lives mean anything.

I fully respect any soldier; friend or foe. Aslong as their war was to protect their families future which is the most important thing in life

The man on 4 thought was wrong wrong wrong!!! Remembrance was originally for our finest people ever who gave their life to save us from the tyranny of nazi germany and allow our country to stand up and be counted. He should be respectful of them as if the nazis won, Islam may not exist anymore after hitler would have finished his despicable death camp program

I was disappointed that such an obviously intelligent man has completely missed the point of Remembrance Sunday.
The wars that are fought across the world are now and always have been those of politicians, not of the soldiers themselves.
Remembrance Sunday began to celebrate the END of the worst war known to man, known as the Great War not because it was seen as a good thing, but because the word "great" referred to size,or magnitude. Men and boys were sent to fight for their country. They weren't given a choice, such were the times, and they could be shot by their own officers if they were seen to be a coward. Being a coward meant refusing to march into a hail of bullets. Millions of people suffered and died on all sides, many of them teenagers.
If we fail to remember the scale of this conflict, which was followed before too long by another of similar magnitude, then we risk more needless death and destruction.
I am not a soldier. I want the world to be peaceful and safe for my children and grandchildren. Please do not confuse the marking of the end of a war and the memory of those who died with glorification of fighting.
If we don't learn from history, then it may well repeat itself.

Sir, I find it both easy and difficult in equal measure to understand your point of view. If I heard correctly, you balance your argument through contradiction rather than reasoning. A couple of points:

1. When I joined up in 1979, I like my peers went through rigorous training. The majority of that training was in the art of survival, ours, and the preservation of life, everyone else's! My very first tour of duty was as part of the Rhodesia Ceasefire Monitoring Force. We went to stop a civil war by physically placing ourselves between two warring factions. The very people we stopped from killing one-another, turned on us. But! Preservation of life was our role! For 22 years, I did this around the world. Never once did I go as an aggressor with a remit to take life, but always as a peace-keeper with the sole intent of preserving life and just as importantly preserving a way of life. The latter as a liberator, not of land, but people!

2. Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen are role-models, as are medical professionals, Firemen, Policemen, Paramedics and the list goes on. I do not for one minute suggest all the above and those too numerous to list are paragons of virtue. In any walk of life, there will be those who lose their way. You as a professional (I do not know if you are a Medical Doctor or Academic) will know that yourself.

3. The idea that politicians simply rely on canon fodder to further their own aims is ludicrous. Moreover, it asserts that every serviceman is a brainwashed robot, and those that lead them are puppets. History is littered with stories of Generals who questioned their orders on moral grounds or even just through common sense in order to avert a needless massacre of innocents.
Again, there have also been exceptions and when there were, those responsible have paid the price.

I suggest if you ever get the time, you read the Geneva Convention Articles of War. Every serviceman and woman in Her Majesty's Armed Forces is governed by these and the 'Rules of Engagement' contained therein. Those who flout them end up in prison! Ignorance is not an excuse.

Please bear in mind, the opportunity you had this evening to air your thoughts and views was afforded you because we are a free country. That freedom did not come cheap. In fact it was bought for you by the very 'sheep' you decry who laid down their lives for others. Most of those (we) 'others' weren't even born then.

Forgive this misquotation, and the lack of reference, but as a former soldier I say this to you: "I disagree with (almost) everything you say, but I defend to the hilt your right to say it!"

He says we should remember the victims. I think this is a bit rich coming from a muslim. One is lead to believe that the murder of six million jews during world war 2 was a myth according to some muslim thinking. This, in my opinion, is gross insult to those who died and also those who survived. Some of whom are alive today.

God, Allah, Tinkerbell, Zeus, Mother Nature, they all have nothing to do with supporting the families of service people in the country we are contracted to support. Since we choose to live here, we are morally bound to whatever our government decides to do. That's the way democracy works. If one doesn't like the British Army, then one has the choice to live outside Britain. People forget what it's like to live in less fortunate places. How about REMEMBERING how lucky you are instead. I say bring back conscription for people who complain.

Heroism is not about religion it is mainly to do with protection and all forces are not given the option as to what they would rather do as it is all about every coniving government wanting their rules to take over everything,so all forces should be given the title of HERO'S because that is exactly what they are and recognition deserved for everything they do,and rememberence day is a way of paying respect for those lost and those still having to obey commands. ALL HERO'S.

Remembrance is not about religion, it is not about politics and it is not about heroes or role models..... it is about remembering every soldier who has fallen, paying respect to those who have lost their lives.

War is a horrible event where sometimes innocent blood is shed, but those that have been saved are grateful, those that have been saved deserve the right to remember the man or woman that made it possible for them to live!!

Remembrance is a day for the families and friends of soldiers to share and show their loss, it is a day for those that are GRATEFUL to show their gratitude, a day where thousands come together!!!!!

Those that are not grateful in my opinion show ignorance!! My dad was a soldier, my dad fought for his country, my dad came home each time although many didnt!! My dad is now a police officer but most of all my dad is MY HERO and no one can take that from me!!!

I feel outraged by your comments as this is a Britain and therefore a country that is proud of it's heritage and armed forces! We are a free country as I'm sure you are aware and this is probably why you choose to live here, if by chance you were born in Britain then don't forget that your services can and will be called upon if we go to war!
I am a proud Army wife and will celebrate on Sunday 11/11/12 our "National day of remembrance" not just for the Afghanistan conflict but for all wars.

I am a serving soldier and I found his comments extremely narrow-minded. We don't join the military for the money and you would be surprised how important a part morality plays in our decisions and actions. We always try and put the safety of civilians at the forefront of our decisions.
Soldiers of all faiths serve throughout the world and they don't consider these differences to be factors that affects them, so why should anyone else say that faith is involved?
I have a strange feeling that this man has never spoken to a soldier and has no idea about what compels people to join, but money is never the driving factor. If that was the case, we'd all join PMCs and become contractors.
One thing he decided to ignore was that Remembrance covers not just the soldiers that have died in wars, but also the civilians as well - that's where the white poppy comes in.
No soldier, especially the ones awarded for bravery, considers themselves a hero. We are just people who do a job that, unfortunately, needs to be done.

Dr Leon Moosavi massively contradicts himself in saying that God gives us the means to defend ourselves against those who would be aggressive. Well, this is exactly why Rememberance Day was first started.

What I don't understand is why is Dr Moosavi bringing Islam into a discussion about Rememberance Day. Possibly this is a case of Dr Mooavi's Islamic environment affecting his opinions which, as a sociologist, I'm sure he'll appreciate.

Leon your slot explains almost exactly my thoughts regarding joining and fighting for an army that is asked to fight on politicians say so. If we cannot trust their honesty or ethics in the day to day we sure as hell should question their motivation in sending people to war. I differ slighty in that we do need to remember we do need an army and soldiers have to follow orders or as some brave individuals who refused to fight in recent wars and were punished but thats needed to maintain discipline otherwise an army will not function. Also for the same reason we cannot claim that to honour our soldiers who have to fullfil their duty...they cannot pick and choose...they do a hard job even if their belief differs from their political leaders. So they do deserve to be honoured!

Perhaps Muslims like Dr Moosavi could use there i.phones to contact each other and come up with a plan to drag the fundamentalists in their religion out of the dark ages. Stopping suicide bombers, giving women equality,allowing education of both sexes and learning to tolerate other religions would be a start in learning to live and let live. Religion in the name of God has caused more horror and evil in this world than anything else but the fundamentalists are intent in dragging us all back into the dark ages when religious killing was commonplace. It's time they were dragged into the 21st century using there 21st century mobile phones to chat and make friends instead of as bomb triggers then our soldiers could come home and leave them in peace!

Dont quite understand the logic, especially from a Phd. The Army is lead by the people, people elect politicians. They follow the will of the people who are the nation and country. These views are typical of people who refuse to integrate with British culture and society. Can I suggest that their either understand their role as a part of society or they chose not to be part of that society and move to a society that they feel happier with.

I think this is a joke. We have remembarance day for a reason!! We will always have it and i strongly disagree with anybody who thinks other wise. The only reason this guy coudlnt be a soldier is because he couldnt hack it!!! The things the soldiers do for this country are unrealistic! People have no idea what they go through physically and mentally ! And therefore the ones who die fighting for our country should always have a remembrance day and i will always respect this!

This chap masquerading behind platitudes of peace & mild as a lamb is clearly a wolf in sheep's clothing. His language supports Jihad and does not accept Britain's parliamentary Democracy and its law makers, the fount of whom is HM The Queen to whom all Armed Forces swear their oath of allegiance. The fact that he cannot look past the last ten years of conflict in Muslim Afghanistan and Iraq illustrates either his lack of empathy with British history the service of the British military to defending the ideals of British liberty in the face of Napoleon and the Nazis - or perhaps his sheer ignorance as to the history of his adopted country, namely The United Kingdom.

The only reason you are able to make this film is because of men that went to war who had family's wives children etc. and many lost everything including their lives .We should all be grateful that such men went to war to defend your rite for free speech and we should remember them. I don't think Adolf would have let you make this film

I think it is a pity that Dr Moosavi feels uncomfortable with Remembrance but I understand his reasons.
I consider Remembrance Sunday to be one of the most important dates in the calendar - and on that day I remember EVERYONE who gave their lives during TWO WORLD WARS. During those wars, most of the soldiers who died did not CHOOSE to go to war - they were civilians and ofte conscripts - not professional soldiers - and were as much a victim as the civiians.

I do not, however, support "Help for Heroes" because I do not agree that all soldiers these days are heroes, and object to the glorification of their role. I believe that they made a career choice and thereby accepted the risks and possible consequences. Whilst some of these people may perform heroic acts, for the reasons given by Dr Moosavi, I do not view these modern soldiers in the same light.

How dare you broadcast this 'film' on TV, days before rememberance Sunday. The millions of sldiers who fought and died durig World War One, eighteen year olds suffering in the trenches,their meories are being tarnished. Not to mention soldiers who are still fghting. We should be celebrating the lives of young men who had their lives snatched away from them by war. Why not hear some war poetry being recited rather than have this random young man give his opinion? We should be listening to the great war poets at this time of year, not pulling our noses up at dead soldiers that are no longer here to defend themselves. Disgustng.

Josef Stalin, Churchill's ally in 1933 systematically murdered ten million Ukrainian during the Holodomor genocide. Three million of the victims children. Britain is still refusing to recognise the Holodomor as an act of genocide against the Ukrainian nation and I wonder why!. Why does British society only focus on the crimes of the Nazis and ignore the crimes of their once wartime ally Soviet Russia. Oh and where was great Britain during the HOLODOMOR??????????? It's very much forbidden history.

I felt he got much right in his thought. Personally I agree that remembrance has gone beyond it's remit and has become a glorification of war. And not just war but British warfare in particular. Wars are hideous things that should be avoided at all costs. Watching a recent TV program were soldiers carry camera's while on duty in Afghanistan, was very revealing. A soldier made the point that the bit of road they were protecting was only mined because the soldiers were there bringing danger to the locals. A bus load of local wedding guests was blown up while on that road and the soldiers ended up picking up body parts of men, women and children.
Why do we glorify soldiers and wars then forget that it is always civilians that pay the highest price. His point on the motivations of wars is also good recent events show wars are more about political juggling than saving people. That poor places like Syria are left to crumble but oil rich countries like Iraq are invaded shows a marked preference in where warfare is directed.

What does all this killing achieve? the bible says "man dominates man to his own injury!" Why is death and destruction the answer? So a poppy that I would never buy just for me represents all the senseless blood lost in these senseless wars.

Dr Leon Moosavi introduces himself as a Muslim and a sociologist. That says it all! Of course, he won't join the army - he'll leave it to other people to protect him and then, no doubt, denigrate the Act of Rememberence when those people are killed doing it. A Muslim sociologist's view of the world just about sums up 'broken Britain' today. Whilst I agree with C4's desire to attract a wide spectrum of views, they should be ashamed at giving this person air time, especially this week. One thing is certain. Dr Moosavi is unlikely ever to be a Hero to anybody.

I cannot believe they allowed this to be broadcast! This is so offensive, particularly in a time when we hear of military deaths on a daily basis! How dare they show this on British television! People are arrested for "offensive" comments they make on social networking - is this guy going to be arrested for offending the majority of Great Britain? Of course not, because only certain groups are allowed freedom of speech...

I have one thing to say, if you channel 4 thinks that a broadcast like this is acceptable with previous and current troops serving around the world. With rememberance sunday approaching i think this is disgusting. This does nothing for troops and troops families moral ! This is where this country has let our forces down and I am embarrassed.

I am disgusted this has been shown leading up to remembrance day. These people have died for our country why shouldn't they be recognised as heroes?

I agree with most of the comment made tonight. Politicians wearing poppies is hypocrisy, since most of them promote war, then pretend they care about the deaths. Remembrance Sunday is about gloryfying war and flag waving. What about all the innocent civilians killed and maimed in US and UK drone strikes and bombings? Any poppies to spare for them?

I think that raj is a joke!!! This isnt even fair for him to be aloud on british television basically blerting out that we shouldnt have poppy day! He should have no say in this whatsoever if anything its offensive to british soldiers and us proud of our contry !

this shoudnt be allowed on the air,its a discrace to the servicemen and women of this country and if muslims dont like it move elsewhere ot live,we will always have remberance day forever more no matter what people like yuo think

I thought this was a very courageous few minutes of talking. I say this because there will be many who totally disagree with his views. I didn't totally agree with everything he said but I do believe he conveyed a sense that the world can be a just place, and war is often deliberately hidden within a pretence of a 'just cause'. I applaud this man's courage. I also applaud Channel 4 for having the courage to air it. Thank you both.

Lets change the definition of Hero to "someone who angrily stares at a Camera".

Get out more.

Dr. Leon Moosavi
The British Army is an all Volunteer force. If you don't want to join you don't have to, the hasn't been conscription in this Country for fifty or sixty years.

'I would never join the British Army'

Most the people we remember never had the luxury of having a choice. They were conscripted to protect a nation.

I hope we never have to rely on people like him if Britain comes under attack.

It doesn't take a genius to realise his barely concealed hypocritical religious rhetoric is trying to point out Islam as being the good guys and the West as the bad guys. I wonder if he realises his 'religion of peace' treated the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan so 'justly' before the west went in there. Whether one agrees with the wars or not, one cannot argue the leaders were nothing short of despotic!

Thanks Channel 4 of giving airtime to another religious fundamentalist who hides behind 'peaceful speeches' who is creating huge divisions in our society today. Is it any wonder the rise of far right groups throughout Europe when you air this so close to a day that is meant for peace and reflection?

This guy reminds me so much of Nick Griffin. A soft voice promoting tolerance and peace yet underneath, someone who wants to create division and hate.

Some people on here have completely missed Leons point. Remembrance day does glorify the military as if they are pure as the day they were born but we know war isnt like that. Remembrance day overshadows victims of war and a lot of other facts of war. People need to stop looking at things in black and white and blindly being patriotic and instead accept that Britain has her flaws and supporting wrong wars is one of them. We should accept that and try to change Britain for the better.

I served 12 years in the Army and agree with some statements and not with others. I don't think all soldiers are heroes, but they are certainly not seeking money to do the dirty work of politicians as suggested here (that is mixing up soldiers and mercenaries and they are different). To me the key thing about Remembrance Sunday is that Politicians have to line up and recognise the sacrifice of those who served, were injured and died because they couldn't do their job, leading the country without taking it to war. I agree some wars may be helpful, going into Kosovo to protect the Muslim population, Sierra Leone to save communities from violent gangs and rebels, while others are probably unlawful, going into Iraq to protect oil revenues under the pretext of saving the population from a dictator. Remembrance Day shouldn't be about religion either. All religions should be about peace but some seem to go to war, to justify violence more than others, whether on a 'political' level or through the twisted values of leadership.

and still waiting to see my comment

How do you all know so much about war? Have you been? None of you have because you are too weak to and hide behind 'hash tags' and @ signs. Stick to your computers and let the heroes do their jobs, which incidentally Leon has been wiping up after your fundamentalist, insane religion for the last 10 years. Out.

It is very seldom, if ever,that muslims mention the fact that most muslims killed in wars or revolutions are killed by FELLOW muslims. Over one million killed in the Iraq Iran war being just one instance of many others.

To see remembrance as glorifying war is already going wrong. It isn't. You are a sociologist? You have an odd take on this. And a lopsided expressed view of the soldier.
You question British leaders and politicians? Fair enough, that's allowed. Can I question Muslim ones too, and their motives, and possible levels of aggression and desire to dominate? Let's be even-handed.

Sadly, for someone who has a PhD Leon displays very little understanding of either the Remembrance Service or those who currently serve within the British army. His allegation that Remembrance 'glorifies the military' is unfounded and begs the question whether as a muslim he has has ever attended such an event? He merely seems to espouse very cliched and naive views of both the military in this country and its politicians.

Good remembrance services do remember the victims of war and the ultimate goal of such services is to pray for peace. But they also recognise that in a fallen world, sometimes people have to take up arms to defend peace and the very essence of morality. The Second World War is a classic example of this. Not to act in the face of such evil is sometimes the greater evil as well as being moral and physical cowardice.

He is correct that not all soldiers are role models, but then again nor are all policeman, or politicians, or dare I say it, Christian's or Muslims! However, some soldiers clearly are 'heroes' in the correct understanding of the term, but to suggest they are in fact 'mercenaries' is simply unworthy and crass in the extreme. I just hope his PhD thesis was better researched and presented than this series of weak and fallacious arguments. In short" 'could do better'!

Spot on. These war mongering politicians such as Tony Blair, George Bush and co are not leaders of any kind. The point you make in also backed up by a leading scholar in America, professor Noam Chomsky (putting aside the notion of God/Religion of which he does not believe). Noam Chomsky clearly states:

"The point of public relations slogans like "Support our troops" is that they don't mean anything... That's the whole point of good propaganda. You want to create a slogan that nobody's going to be against, and everybody's going to be for. Nobody knows what it means, because it doesn't mean anything. Its crucial value is that it diverts your attention from a question that does mean something: Do you support our policy? That's the one you're not allowed to talk about."

Well said Leon! I think everything you said needed this type of platform to be said to the wider society as people are blinded by the word "HEROES." I'm sure if we was to look up the word heroes in the dictionary and compared it with the mindless violence and barbarity dealt out by countless individuals in armies throughout history, there would be huge differences.

The only thing I would say to Leon is Remembrance Day remembers all those that have died and remembering the dead no matter what they did should be something that should respected especially if they died for what they saw as a noble cause.

The Qu'ran repeatedly refers to Jesus, The Bible at Acts 4:11, 12 shows they is no salvation in anyone else than through Jesus because he was a ransom sacrifice for all of mankind therefore he is the ultimate hero and if people are looking for a role model you will not find a better one than Jesus.